Harper ups ante on election ultimatum ****
Posted on 26 August 2008 by Jack
OTTAWA — The rush for a snap election is quickening as senior Conservatives indicated that Prime Minister Stephen Harper might not wait to meet Stéphane Dion before calling a vote if the Liberal Leader does not agree to talks next week.
That could set the stage for a campaign triggered next week, with some Conservatives circling Sept. 5 as the most likely date.
Mr. Harper indicated last week he wanted crisis-atmosphere meetings with opposition leaders within a few weeks before deciding whether to call an election, but that has led to a cat-and-mouse game over the timing of the tête-à-têtes.
Mr. Dion’s aides have proposed he meet the Prime Minister Sept. 9, one day after three by-elections in Quebec and Ontario, but the Conservatives greeted that suggestion with disdain yesterday.
“We’re in the age of modern communications … and you can’t find a half-hour in that period of time to either sit down or talk by phone? That isn’t schedules not linking up, that is a decision that’s being made not to talk,” said Kory Teneycke, Mr. Harper’s communications director.
Mr. Harper is expected to speak to reporters at a press conference today, and some Conservatives hinted strongly he might tighten the deadline on his ultimatum - opening the door to a campaign that could start next week.
“At what point do you say enough?” one senior Tory said. “It’s likely before Sept. 9.”
An election call would cancel four by-elections, three slated for Sept. 8 and one for Sept. 22, as well as the fall sitting of the Commons.
Update: Election call step closer as Dion delays meeting
Update: Harper strongly suggests fall election coming
Update: Feds announce project to map Arctic’s resources
Note: 7:42 pm and I’m gone.
Take care all and goodnight.
Popularity: 31% [?]
August 26th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Great comment from the Star comment section…
The Seinfeld syndrome
This reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George attempted to avoid a breakup by not meeting with his girlfriend.
Posted by Galoca at 8:05 AM Tuesday, August 26 2008
August 26th, 2008 at 9:36 am
Parliament is no more dysfunctional than it has ever been, and what Harper does now is going to tell Canadians a lot about him.
While fixed election date legislation does not prevent him from calling an election the fact that there are 4 by-elections on the go that the CPoC is not confident of winning, and which will be canceled if a general election is called, will make Harper look no different than other Prime Ministers who called elections based on political expedience — and didn’t he say that his legislation (or at least the spirit of it) was intended to prevent that?
August 26th, 2008 at 9:53 am
My problem sitting here is that anything I think would only be a guess as to what is really prompting Harper to move now. For all we know it could be it could be the bill sponsored by Ken Epp which he refuses to withdraw (see this mornings take).
An election would kill it if I have it right.
The truth is nobody really knows what’s going on and everyone is speculating. For myself, I guess I’ll have to wait and see what happens. I have absolutely no idea what Harper is really thinking but I trust him.
August 26th, 2008 at 10:06 am
Could be a mistake to go now as many Canadians are in no mood for an election. If called and the results remain the same, heads will roll in all parties.
August 26th, 2008 at 10:20 am
My observations of the deflationary credit crunch gripping the US banking system dictates that this is the optimal time, from an economic point of view, to go to the polls.
I believe we’re going to see major hits in the auto industry, as Ford and GM are in some tough straits, and appear to me to be having difficulty obtaining financing in this climate. That will hit Ontario hard.
I would also rather run against Dion than Rae. Perhaps running isn’t the operative word, it may be more like walking briskly.
The Liberals are, and have been trying desperately to drive a wedge between women (who they think vote with hearts, not heads) and CPC. Hence the inflammatory nature of this bill Harper wants off the radar screen. However, the Liberals stomped most aggregiously on a model woman of Canada: a successful, entrepreneurial, environmentally-progressive business woman. Not only do they insult women with their appeals for votes based on emotion rather than intellect, but they follow through with ham-fisted, arrogant and hypocritical actions.
As for Canadians not wanting an election, balderdash, I say. We have work to do to clean up the mess left to us by the years of Liberal dominated rule, and we need a majority to go there. Even if Harper misses the mark, he will most certainly obtain a substantial minority government. Dion has already demonstrated that he would rather squat on his puffin quarters than take down a minority government and face the end of his political career in the ensuing leadership convention.
Funny, isn’t it, how the color themes of the two parties are opposite of reality? Red is warm, blue is cold. Red is emotion, blue is logic. In all my years, however, I have never witnessed a more cold-blooded specimen than an ambitious Liberal.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:22 am
Jack — You’re right Jack about the private members bill. An election would kill anything on the order paper, no matter what is was. Stage left is a hypocrite.
Why do the left, such as Stage Left, put different standards on conservatives? Anyone can see that the parliament of Canada is dysfunctional. We are paying our members to fight and argue and get into gotcha inquiries. Sure it has always been noisy, but it wasn’t ever like this and I am old enough to remember as far back as Diefenbaker’s time.
The bottom line is, apart from legislation the Tories have forced through, is getting done. And, apart from one or two committees, the others are not functioning and I have been keeping track. So, the work for the people of this country is not getting done.
Chretien called two elections after only three years in a majority situation. Very few who are complaining now complained then.
I trust Harper and Guy Giorno. There are contingencies built in to the fixed election date because they have to be there for the protection of the country and the current tyrany of the opposition, where they are in the majority in the committees.
Anyway, Harper and Giorno know when it’s the right time and if the Liberals are screaming, you know this is the right time.
Trust me, the fixed election date story will be gone after the first day if not before.
As you would say Jack, you can take that to the bank!
Seen the signs before. They are all there. So, everyone should just take a deep breath and get a few good nights sleep because it (a federal election) is going to be a happening. Very soon.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:24 am
LG, do you remember this from Harper?
Out the window?
August 26th, 2008 at 11:29 am
UV — The people are NEVER in a mood for an election. But, once it get’s started, it will become the norm. As I said to Jack, how is it that Chretien could get away with calling elections after only three years — when he had majority governments — just because the opposition (in that case the right) was in disarray?
You know what? My guess is that Harper is not defined by this job and he wants to find out where the Canadian people are on his leadership. If people would prefer Dion and the Liberals, he can then move on with his life. If they want him, fine, let’s get on to governing this country — which is not really governable right now. If parliament continues, it will be one Liberal inquiry after another — while trying to show that they are not the only corrupt politicians. It is sick and has to stop.
Just my opinion of course. But, usually you and I are on the same page. You’re right though — this is going to be one heck of a fight.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Harper’s indicated to Dion that he wants “crisis atmosphere meetings” with the opposition leader and Dion’s delaying.. Dion’s consistent in non-response, if nothing else. The platforms should be interesting or maybe not. But we’re aspiring to a majority, nothing less. They deserve it based on the accumulated record. A thought: We’re Canadians (Mikeys), therefore, we’re capable of producing a majority this time round. What use is it to Canadians to watch the parliament this Fall painfully “pulling teeth” time after time, to get the simplest things done. Delay all you like, Dion and co. You’re essentially useless to the main Canadian program.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Sandy: “Chretien called two elections after only three years in a majority situation. Very few who are complaining now complained then.”
The difference being that Chretien didn’t propose a fixed election date law supposedly to “prevent governments from calling snap elections for short-term political advantage” and to “stop leaders from trying to manipulate the calendar simply for partisan political advantage” did he?
I’m not complaining, I have no horse in this potential race, I haven’t cast a legal vote in years (and years), and I have no intention of casting one in this election either - encouraging this sort of behaviour is not a viable solution.
What I am doing is pointing out Harper’s hypocrisy in this…. they all act the same Sandy, the only difference is the colour of their ties.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Posted up at CBC approx. 45 minutes ago. Harper returns with lightning speed communique that “he won’t break any of his promises.” That’s all I wanted to hear. When a man keeps his word, that’s the thing… Link below:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/26/harper-election.html
August 26th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
It’s the “little things that stick in people’s mind, with a smidgen of help from the press of course.
If Harper irgores the fixed election legislation his party put in place, he will be perceived by a lot of voters as just another politician that will bend the rules if it serves their purpose.
Rather like a contiuation of what we had under the Liberal’s I say.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:23 pm
You do get, stageleft, that “crises circumstances” do necessarily change on-the-ground circumstances. Who do you believe (in your gut) has the best interests of Canada in heart and mind? Oh skip the emotional appeal. Which leader has a functioning mind? And a clean record? Which party robbed the Canadian pantry and is now desperate to obfuscate?
Too many Liberals still believe the party is FOR THE WORKING STIFF, but it’s clear now to a gnat that the Liberals are the “MOI” party. Pigs at the trough, without Miss Piggy’s sense of humour to ameliorate the situation.
You gotta go with what works. Sometimes.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Harper was just on CTV taking questions and I’ve linked the story. Video is available.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Crisis circumstances? What crisis circumstances exist Anna? It’s a crisis when the Prime Minister of a minority government can’t get his own way?
– sorry, don’t buy it.
To answer your questions Anna, quite frankly I happen to believe that none of them can be trusted as far as they could be tossed into a stiff head wind.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Guardsman — think again. I don’t think Harper and his cabinet have “worked against this country.” Circumstances change. They want to govern and continue to do a decent job. There’s reason for us to be enthusiastic. It’s turning out to be a people-oriented RESPONSIVE gov’t. Some do operate at the level of working for the causes (in this case our population) and not with self-interests all the way. But do go with your gut. I’ll curb my enthusiasm if it’s proven otherwise.
stageleft — they’ll hang themselves with their ties. We’re looking at “keeping their words” and back to the handshake that “seals a deal.” “Simple trust” is the main ingredient on the upcoming platforms. Worth its weight in gold, to a cynical public that’s been taxed the max on the planet TIL NOW.
More tax breaks = a VERY POSSIBLE majority. It’s the only thing the Clintons ever got right, rhetorically speaking anyways, “It’s the economy, stupid.” Then the Dems taxed to the max, like the Liberals did to us.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
“I happen to believe that none of them can be trusted as far as they could be tossed into a stiff head wind.”
I guess that puts you squarely middle of the road Stageleft, right alongside a lot of people I know. I truly wish that fact could be changed.
How to accomplish it I don’t know.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
You forgot to put up the link, Jack. It’s CTV’s responsibility to play it several times today. And remember, I want to hear him in person if he swings around southern Ontario. I always hear about the visit after the fact.
He’s got to dump Tony Clement now, today. Brodbeck’s column today quoting Clement. I don’t know the history of the man. But he’s got to go, now.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Weren’t we all the the “middle of the road” Jack a couple of years back. We can identify with that, huh? However, not to decide, is to decide. And simple trust is everything. How easy when there’s signposts/evidence to actually merit it. But for your efforts here, I wouldn’t have seen the picture, nor would apparently 3,000 daily readers.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Would you just look at the CTV link. Photo op of Dion walking along to a meeting on AUGUST 19th. A meeting well over a week ago. But get that “do nothing’s face in there, why don’t you CTV.” Did he get tot he meeting? What did it consist of? Any results, CTV? Scrap the picture, please. Puffin or dodo birds I don’t know which sporting the “orange beak” and all. Ignatieff got confused on the colours and the symbol.
It’s amusing to watch the “papers-in-hand” carriers walk around to distraction, but can’t get a job done. Fact is, WE HAVE TO GO TO ELECTION. You can’t tie up hands like that. Heck, it’s “our hands” in the long run.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
“You forgot to put up the link, Jack. ”
It’s on the main entry as an update, Anna. I’ve also added a new poll in the sidebar where people can vote.
Finally, many comments pouring in here regarding this topic.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
The link doesn’t have “active video”, Jack that I see. I’ve tuned in to CTV as they may repeat the broadcast as they should. See CTV on-line print posting up DION WALKING TO MEETING ON PARLIAMENT HILL A WEEK AGO, AUGUST 19th. Worth repeating the inanity of the reporting. So what, he’s walking. And is he chewing bubble gum? Who cares.
I was first to vote in the new poll. Took my sweet time on the MacKenzie question til I looked up the background and history.
All registering their doubts ARE IMPORTANT. It’s up to any standing party to deal with the doubts. Stageleft isn’t expressing anything that people on the streets and in communities aren’t talking about. We talk it out, then wait for any viable, forthcoming actions with merit.
Tax relief to the tune of between $1,000 - $3,000 per families and income splitting seniors was a promise kept. Now, read the lips, “income splitting for families” on the platform today. Thanks, PM Harper and team! Go for it!
Geez, I haven’t been first (voting in the poll) since I don’t know when. “Behind the eight-ball” as I many times am.
Oh yes, great story about the FBI hitting a home run on the other entry after the reported gaffes. When orgs/gov’ts work, it’s a great day. As they invariably do once in a while. We can talk it out. We keep talking. Oh gosh, can’t do the “Irish relative thingy” — I’ll take the breather. Remind me, Jack. However, I’m going with the enthusiasm. Satisfaction to be provided by a majority achievement for a deserving crew, IMO. I close my pie hole now. LOL.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
“Nothing will change the rabid Liberal supporters? The Globe and Mail is one disgusting paper, and the people who comment there are so rabid that even Old Yeller looks sane.”
http://tiny.cc/Va1rh
August 26th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
‘The link doesn’t have “active video”…it’s in the sidebar of the CTV link, Anna. I thought you would know that.
Sorry…
August 26th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Our soldiers on a three day offensive in response to the suicide-bombing deaths of our three engineer soldiers. CTV reporting their resolve, determination to instill loyalty. God bless them. Link below:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080524/workman_base_080524/20080525?hub=Specials
Can’t find the active video. I’ll go back to find because CTV broadcast is all over the American DEM convention. No repeat as yet of our Prime Minister’s statement. Makes one sick the incessant burying of a gov’t’s record and statements. You’re engineering your own demise MSM.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Video link from the CTV page side bar.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Oh oh Anna, you’re about to get be on the receiving end of the ‘rath of Jack’. (Ha..it’s not all that bad). But anyway, thanks for the opening on Afghanistan and our troops that gives me an excuse to throw this out there….
http://tiny.cc/imeBZ
August 26th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
Found it at CTV. Didn’t see the bluelighted VIDEO label. I always usually look for text reports. Personal preference.
PMSH also reported that the expanding meat products recall is appropriately being investigated as to the CAUSE (it’s now taken 12 lives and left scores ill) and how it can be prevented in the future. He also stated that Tony Clement is attending the Democatic Convention, though the food contamination problem is under the direct durisction of the food inspection agencies where extra staff were recently hired (monies afforded in last budget). We may look for statements from the Minister over Agriculture as well.
Greetings and hi, NB Tory Lady. Caught your welcome back and I appreciate it very much. R & R helps a great deal. As does time spent outdoors.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Thank you, StageLeft. I listened to the TV this morning when Harper was up but my hearing is down 30% and I didn’t catch it all. The video works fine with my headset on.
I am wondering if anyone can find a transcript of Harper’s comments so that we can fisk them properly.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
No Jack, the middle of the road folks will go to the polls and put an “X” beside the representative of one party or another, and then that individual will run off to the House of Commons and represent their leader instead of the people who put them in their position of privilege, and the middle of the road will do this because they think it’s their “civic duty”.
I am under no such delusion and will refuse to participate.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
Does refusing to vote mean that you truly don’t differentiate between the parties? Harper’s and Dion’s personal beliefs (forget Layton/Marx and Duceppe/Benedict Arnold) about what course Canada should steer are so opposite that for anyone to not be able to see the difference is difficult to believe. If you like one’s vision of Canada better than the other, then simply vote for the candidate who represents that person/party. If enough good guys refuse to participate, then the bad guys will almost surely win because vulture’s appetites are never satisfied.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Vultures. Yes, let them circle for the purpose of identifing them. Then bring them down. But let’s not elevate the Liberals to vultures from simple little huffin/puffin birds, eh?
With orange beaks (NDP colour) at that!
Putting this tribute to our heroes up right now on the three day offensive. If i incur Jack’s “wrath” we’ll pretend we’re ten years old, duke it out with an arm wrestle, and I’ll win. NOT. hahahaha.
But putting it up because some of Dr. Dion’s links are fast disappearing for availability. Glad the one that promotes “love” and not malevalent hatreds was so honoured. Link below. A tribute to our CF heroes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfcdrUDQ_tc&feature=related
btw, BTDT. Your strange link supposedly on Afghanistan is an ad that promises to name a person’s next lover. hahahha. I’ll pass if you don’t mind. Kidding.
August 26th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
What!!!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Yeah, that’s what I get on the tiny url BZ above linked, btdt. I kid you not. A good laugh. What do you get on it?
Further, another inspirational piece by Dr. Dion whose pieces are increasingly no longer available. Just learned at Wikipedia she has Syrian rooted heritage.
Maybe it’s because the deepest love has returned to me in the brightest possible smiles of my granddaughters, but here’s Celine singing our Christian message — “no sacrifice is to great.” We never count the cost.
Praying our troops bear no hatreds in their hearts, as they remember the love of their families, when engaged in battle with our mortal enemies. Amazing lyrics. Heard it for the first time last night. I do see the possibility of an ambassador role for this Quebecer. Link below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imoXJUTrgp0&NR=1
August 26th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, anybody. But when we don’ use our vote, doesn’t the standing gov’t chalk it up? In other words, if we don’t vote, the current gov’t gets the count?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Refusing to vote means that I have chosen not to participate in what I see as a fundamentally flawed system.
Others may think that choosing an MP to represent the political party who manages to gather the greatest minority of votes in an election is a good way of deciding who makes decisions for them - I do not.
Others may think that helping to make the decision as to who will be whipped into voting when, and how, the party decides is their “civic duty” - I do not.
And no, if an individual chooses to remove themselves from the process the government of the day does not get the vote - where the heck did you come across that one anyway? It’s as daft as the “if you don’t vote you can’t complain” - a total load of b/s , in fact if you willingly participate in the process, and willingly agree to be bound by the outcome of that process, what right do you have to complain?
August 26th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Mr. Deyawn Will table his carbon tax, should parliament sit, the Dippers and the blocheads will support the bill - it will pass and become law on the books even if the Prime Minister does not fund it. Does anyone else see the grim spectre of a blubber-like creature in China with his bank book in his left wing (err.., hand) DEMANDING his $$$from the peons (err..taxpayers) from Canada: lurking right behind Deyawn??!
Maybe it is just my mind playing tricks on my eyes.
Please call this election right away Mr. Prime Minister. This might be Canada’s last chance to continue to thrive as a free nation - if you plan to vote Conservative….PLEASE vote.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Precisely, Jema. Oh yes, we’ll all go vote Liberal so the tax take can double/triple. Sure, makes all the sense. Oh Gawd. We can turn this thing around and we better.
Did you figure out the bad urls, BTDT?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:10 pm
stageleft, check this out. Then compare it to the Liberal’s list. Can’t find it? Son of a gun…neither can anyone else! Besides, it has to be a list of ‘accomplishments’ not specifically identified in our Criminal Code. Still think the system is totally broken. Actually I believe you will. Your loss.
http://harpergovernmentaccomplishments.com/
August 26th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Everything works fine at my end with the urls Anna. Your computer having a ‘bad hair day’ or something?
August 26th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I see your points, Stageleft. There is no real penalty if a politician lies if the other choices are liars as well. Not voting is a choice, of course, and your right. You articulate a rationale for your decision, which is to be respected.
I would be interested to know what constitutes “better” and would be acceptable.
One way to view the voting process is that one can either for “for” a platform, or individual, or both; or, vote “against” other candidates. I’ll wager you’ve turned this upside down, sideways, and every other direction. At the end of your day, your non-participation (in the paper marking part) is both your right, and a clear message.
The consequences, if everyone too the same stand, are interesting to contemplate. At some point, turnout becomes so low that “representation” becomes farcical.
All that being said, I would rather live with this farce than many of the alternatives I’ve seen. It can be a very brutal world out there.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
stageleft: re your question. I heard that in passing several elections ago, but didn’t pay attention or give it much thought at the time. So, you’re confirming the unused vote CAN’T BE USED. Makes sense.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
My computer’s always getting stuck, acting up. Tired of it creeping me out sometimes and I’ve had the guy over several times to put up the virus blockers. Can’t expend any more on poor fixes.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:33 pm
You’re coming through fine, Anna. Not a problem on this end.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
Good, Jack. I’ll let you win the arm wrestle contest. A good laugh. Oh, I see good music to listen to already. Can’t get my mind off a sizeable majority! heh!
August 26th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I’m laughing. Can’t get over what Dion is going to do next. He’s painted himself into very small corner.
And there’s no way out.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
My money is on Deyawn squeeking…like the mouse would.
August 26th, 2008 at 7:14 pm
“Snap”…
August 26th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
I’m sure CTV gave him well over half an hour to ramble on with noted fabrications maybe singular to his active imagination — I think it went as long as forty minutes. Meanwhile I didn’t see PM Harper’s press conference repeated in toto, just excerpts.
Noticeable in Dion’s body language was extreme nervous tension. Does anybody at all realize, Chretien’s made a complete fool of this absent-minded professor. Trying to pass the carbon tax plan off on we the “peuple!”
Wish I remembered shorthand Jack. I’d try to take down Harper’s whole press conference, but I don’t remember it nor do I have the speed. It’s the MSM’s job to GIVE US THE TEXT. It did end with PM Harper saying to the effect, the opposition parties are hardly surprised by the decision.
Now, tonight to hear the American Dems “economic plans.” Hillary is sure to be a virtual gas act. I’m dying to hear the Left’s plan…which will, in effect, “crush our American brothers and sisters.” That’s my read. But they won’t be crushed, if they think beyond the emotion and the hype.
August 26th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Jema and Jack, can it be possible, we’re looking at the “Gotcha” moment. The revelation has arrived. Let’s not get too sure of ourselves, oh, but we will anyway! Go Harper and team. Reap your just desserts/rewards. Ergo, Canadians can live again with some degree of common sensibilities. Sorry, my pie hole’s in over-drive. Enthusiasm’s catchy.
“Snap, snap, snap.”
August 26th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
“Can it be possible, we’re looking at the “Gotcha” moment”…
That happened when Harper won the leadership of the Alliance. It’s been all downhill for the left ever since. “Crouton” buggered off…Martin took over and the dragon was slain.
Can’t wait to see what happens next.
August 26th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I will make a final point.
Everyone is watching the political fornication in the US at the moment. Pure amateurs in my view.
Watch Canada and Harper to see how a change of power is truly accompished.
There is much to be learned.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Sheez, the comment count on this issue is going up faster than gasoline prices!
August 26th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Harper just weighed in on a problem affecting primarily Ontario (tainted meat / lysteria)
Now I know there is going to be an election.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I’m laughing.
More to come…
August 26th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Stageleft: If you do not vote then you have NO say so please STFU. This forum is for thinking people who have the gonads to vote for the person and the party they believe in. Go away!
August 26th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
beentheredonethat: spoken like a true hyper-partisan. I’m sure that some equally hyper-partisan Liberal could put together a list of Chretien/Martin accomplishments… so what?
LG: For starters we could ensure a legal/financial/electoral penalty if a party breaks a campaign promise - not gonna happen is it? No party would propose such a thing let alone actually pass it would they.
How about a federal “decline the ballot”, it’s a recommendation that’s on the books - why has no party proposed making it law.
How about we abolish whipped votes? It’s within the power of the parties to do that - no party will entertain the idea because if they did the MPs might actually represent their constituents instead of being forced to represent the party.
How about we hold e-referendums on issues and let Canadians speak on issues instead of having politicians tell us what’s good for us?
How about we start entertain the concept of local responsibility and decision making?
How about we get some recall legislation in place?
There are lots of things that could be done, but none of the political parties will seriously entertain them because they all represent a loss of party power.
– and that is the major flaw in our system, the parties have too much power, the people have too little, and voting will never change that.
eliza: spoken like a true hyper-partisan (or maybe in your case a true party dogmatic)… you just keep letting the party think for you dear, it’ll all work out in the end now won’t it.
Do my thoughts make you uncomfortable eliza? Maybe I’ll let Jack decide when/if I should go away, all he’s gotta do is ask and I’m out of here.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
stageleft, the CBC National comes on in 14 minutes in your timezone, I know you’ll not want to miss it.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Stageleft, each point you raise would make for fine discussion. In the final analysis, I think we get down to tuning the delegation of power from the body politic to elected representative - changing the contract as it were. Moving from a model of a “over-the-wall” delegation under a set of defined circumstances (election, parliament, rules for dissolution, etc) to a more constant expression of power, which can be retracted, recalled, withheld. That very concept touches on many of the points you raise. Thank you for your response.
August 27th, 2008 at 7:52 am
I don’t think you should go away stageleft. I didn’t pay attention to you before and now that you’re waving your I DON’T VOTE FLAG so proudly I’m not paying attention to what you have to say now.
Not voting makes you nil and void in my opinion.
What surprises me is that anyone else would spend time on your comments and here we are several posts later still playing with the little fish instead of talking up the big one.
Go figure
August 27th, 2008 at 8:31 am
Voca hits a home run with the bases loaded.
August 27th, 2008 at 9:16 am
At the risk of wandering off topic, I admit to having somewhat of a fascination with the hyper-partisan Voca, it’s interesting how otherwise intelligent, reasonable, and thoughtful people (for reasons that completely escape me) cannot get passed dogmatic loyalty to the party or to the leader of the party except in the most extreme of circumstances.
How does one excuse the failings of “their guy” while berating “the other guy” who is doing, or has done, essentially the same things - a difficult question to logically answer isn’t it?
In addition to the above (what I consider to be a) short coming there is also the phenomena of the hyper-partisan not wanting to hear or see dissenting opinions, or have questions asked that may cast doubt on the party or the party leader — don’t get me wrong here, the flip side of your particular political ideology has exactly the same problem; you should hear the Liberals scream when I question the usefulness and fairness of Dion’s Green shift, his ability as a leader (and potential PM),or even comment in passing about their leaders inability to get a coherent unscripted sentence out during a press conference or media scrum…. it’s a sight to behold I can assure you.
August 27th, 2008 at 9:30 am
did someone say something worth noting?
Nope, doesn’t look like it.
Say Jack, in honour of the upcoming election and bon voyage to Mr. Dion, how about we have a little fun and come up with the theme songs for both campaigns??
Me first.
Dion Liberals - Another One Bites the Dust - Queen
Harper Conservatives - so many good ones but - Mama Mia - Abba
“how can I resist you”
August 28th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Stageleft I hope you return to read this. The democratic talking points you’ve raised in the list need addressing by both politicians and citizens. The possible reforms you’ve outlined such as MPs representing and accurately reflecting the opinions and consensus of their constituents may be considered the top priority. You are not wrong on this.
The potential of the present gov’t appears great and my bet is, they will increasingly probe citizens’ opinions. The efficient, cost effective mail-box flyers we’re now receiving from an “interested gov’t” (first time in decades) are the perfect opportunity for citizens to respond and comment.
Have you examined the Harper accomplishment website and taken note of what works for we, “the peuple?” I vote for what works for Canadian citizens. Whichever party offers a viable citizens’ agenda makes ultimate sense.
I’m hoping for the reforms you’ve outlined and have considerable confidence a legitimate party will go there in the not-to-distant-future. But they need citizen approval and support. They won’t get it from the current Liberal team, waiting in the wings (amongst the puffin birds) to tax us to the max — at the pump and our paycheques in order to send our monies and means of a living OFFSHORE, while they aim to get complete control of the taxpurse which, if they do, returns Canadians to a point of no return. Hence, this election is critical to citizens. Forget the politicians.
Just confirming I’m among those who want reforms as the parliamentary system is antiquated in terms of the modern social/economic picture.
Still too many citizens, thanks to the media, are unaware of what’s at stake — their immediate and long term future.
Let’s not stop talking. I know Jack welcomes diverse and informed opinion. As far as I read, no one barred and only mean-spirited partisans reject any citizen’s valid points of discussion. Your points are of maximum interest to me as a citizen. If we’re going to engage in the democratic process, let’s do it in real time. Together, despite the stripes.
August 28th, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Correcting, should read, “not-TOO-distant future.”
August 28th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I’ll go for both theme songs, Voca. Both more than appropriate! Telling it the way it is.
August 28th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Voca…”Say Jack, in honour of the upcoming election and bon voyage to Mr. Dion, how about we have a little fun and come up with the theme songs for both campaigns??”
I checked your choices at Youtube. How’s about we go with “Waterloo” regarding the Libs?
It’s up.
August 28th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Anna, the chances that the petty comments of people like Voca or beentheredonethat would send me to huddling in a corner and muttering ‘o woe is me, the world is so unfair and I am being picked upon are pretty slim - the thin skinned don’t survive very long in the blogosphere and although they can, at times, be an interesting diversion I’ve seen their ilk (in all political stripes) far to often to pay them any real attention.
I’m am also fully aware that Jack is not interested in an echo chamber, if he was I’d probably would have been banned far earlier than this — it’s the difference between being a “real blogger”, interested in discussion and debate, and “someone with a blog” who wants only to have their own particular views validated by like minded people(*).
It’s nice to think that a government would actually be interested in listening to the people, and then doing something about it - but the sad fact is that it rarely happens, and even rarer still is the government or party that gives up any power once gained.
(*) pay attention Jack, that’s a compliment, and I rarely hand them out to partisan bloggers - of any stripe
August 28th, 2008 at 11:55 pm
stageleft: that’s why I’ve been reading here for two years — it’s freedom of expression within reason and toward a legitimate society and economy. We hope because “rareties” do happen and we can Thank God they do. Jack and his site deserve your commendations. We try, try to see it, then tell it as it really is. What’s the point of it all otherwise.
But everybody remember to break away and get outdoors, kiss and hug loves ones who are our sun, moon and stars for which we go the whole nine yards or try to. Keeping perspective and moving forward, shoulder to shoulder accomplishes anything.
Somewhere in another of Celine Dion’s songs (foget which one) the lyrics go, “For the greatest reward is the love in your eyes.” The eyes mirror the soul my mother used to say. Now, we may want to focus on the “souls” of the two parties this election. They do possess them ya know!
Thanks for the link on the other entry, stageleft.
August 29th, 2008 at 2:27 am
Y“Snap, snap, snapour posts are winners Anna. Thank-you. I also like your line:
“Snap, snap, snap”
A song, in honor of Anna’s great line could be “Pop goes the Weasel”
August 29th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Hi Jema: Just returned to say the mousetrap image you evoked for Dion and Jack with the “snap” made me laugh. I extended it to three snaps for the other two, Ignatieff and Rae. Talk about “cat and mouse” — now we’re onto “weasel” are we. Haven’t come across that word (image) in many a moon. But if it fits somewhere, why not. Sad, we have to think in these terms, but some have given us absolutely no choice. Look at Thibeault’s nonsense as reported this morning…
stageleft: I’d like to add a comment regarding the tone/civility found on the blogosphere over two years. It’s usually in the basement. I didn’t know these levels of hatreds existed consistently and on an everyday basis. My conclusion: people are in great numbers psychologically very disturbed. You really have to ignore/forgive in many instances, because I do believe it stems from unchecked fear and the response is loathing all the way. Very sad commentary. Makes you want to reach out and help in some way by a good word, gesture, etc.
People no longer understand simple concepts of friendship, sociability, therefore, don’t know how to engage in discussions/conversation as many are in a tight “vicegrip” mainly of their own making. Then there’s always the assumption that people ALWAYS want something for nothing, or expect a payback. Now maybe most do, but a lot do not.
My main education has happened over these two years, I’m quite sure of that and I centre and am absorbed by any possible remedies that can be applied to a deeply disturbed population, such as what we regularly find.