Anti-spanking bill passed by Senate *
Posted on 19 June 2008 by Jack
OTTAWA - A bill that could see parents slapped with assault charges for spanking their children has passed a crucial first step on its way to becoming law.
Bill S-209, which would prohibit a parent to use force on his or her child except in very limited circumstances, was adopted without fanfare by the Senate this evening.
The House of Commons must also adopt the bill before it can become law.
“It is to send a signal so that people who use violence in a repeated way will no longer feel protected,” said Liberal Senator Céline Hervieux-Payette, the author of the bill. “It is not to arrest everyone who gives their child a tap on the arm.”
Darren Eke, press secretary to Justice Minister Rob Nicholson, said the ruling Conservatives will probably be given a free vote on the private member’s bill.
“We look forward to the debate that will take place when the House of Commons will consider this bill, as amended by the Senate, in the fall,” he wrote in an email to The Gazette.
The bill, which has taken nearly four years to wend its way through the upper chamber, removes the defence contained in Section 43 of the Criminal Code for parents and educators who resort to corporal punishment as a corrective measure.
Without that defence, they could be open to charges of assault for striking children in their care - particularly if it occurs often or is severe.
The bill was amended, however, in response to concerns raised by groups testifying before a Senate committee, that any use of force - even to protect a child or someone else - could be criminalized.
Update: 21 July 08 — Comments closed to shut down the spam mailer that is driving people crazy – sorry!
Popularity: 40% [?]
June 19th, 2008 at 8:15 am
A contributor on another blog put it quite nicely….
“Obviously the lib-left utopians can’t tell the difference between a spanking and a beating any more than they can differentiate between a drive by shooting and olympic target shooting or hate speech and the right to dissent…are we doomed or are these people about to be made politically extinct by civil disobedience?”
June 19th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Send uncontrollable children to the senate to be dealt with. Let the senate eat their own words for a change.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:10 am
The woman who introduced this bill is what’s her name, Hervaux-Payette, an old liberal hack elected first in 1979, given high office by Trudeau and later turfed from cabinet by John Turner in early 1984.
She was such a finely honed dud that the voters subsequently turned her away in each of the elections of 1984, 1988 and 1993.
Chretien made her a Senator in 1995 and Dione, who she supported, made her Leader of the Opposition in the Senate in 2007.
So what the devil is going on when some cluck emphatically turned away by the voters can turn up 25 years after the fact and be found introducing politically motivated bills into Parliament.
It’s time to throw the appointed Senate and its un-electable “honourable” members straight into a non-recycling garbage can, where it and they belong.
June 19th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Libs don’t want you to spank. They say use other methods. But now a Quebec court has overturned a parents’ grounding of their 12 year old girl. I guess they’re intentionally trying to create a generation of hellians so that the government has to step in and raise our kids in the future.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h9kqGvkVPSvo-KNWFDWAg-mVfleg
June 19th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Eventually yelling at your child will be banned. Don’t want to hurt their feelings or their little ears. Next to be banned will be the stern look with the accompanying headshake. Don’t want to scare them.
Funny how these types worry so much about a tap on the bottom, but don’t care about abortion. Sigh.
Do these people not look at the world around them? Do they see how some kids have no respect towards authority or property? How do they think it got this way? Kids used to respect teachers until punishment was taken away. We’ve raised a generation of children who think they are special just because they can breathe. It’s time to bring punishment back into schools and teach kids that there are consquences to bad behaviour. It’s also time for teachers to be authoritative and not their students’ friends.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Make no mistake about it. It’s a targeted money-grabbing bill — nothing more, nothing less. Added to the carbon tax grab of every stripe should the Liberals resume power. Many will be exiting Canada as what’s going on in Britain.
A judge reversing a father’s decision to correct by removing the right to go on a class excursion. It is totally unpalatable. Where are the heads? Senate and this judge, in particular? Vote NO to clear attempts at the most pervasive social engineering scheme as what’s rolling out of the Liberal camp, come next election.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Barbara is absolutely right. If teachers cannot gain the respect AND authority in the classroom, the students are on course to learn absolutely nothing, whether in curriculum content or, just as important, social skills and relations. Generation Y under these conditions are having clear problems in the high schools across the country due to lax education system riddled with probably the poorest breed of educators ever in existence. Only interested in their paycheques. Students are their secondary consideration, if at all. They vote Liberal in their own cause, but astute Canadians raising teenagers now can speak up at the polls on voting day. The majority can change this scenario.
June 19th, 2008 at 3:30 pm
Yet another example of the unelected Ottawa fascists sticking their noses into business that is not theirs.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Is Sharon Carstairs still a Senator? I guess unless she has since died she still is. Anyway, I remember many years ago she was carping off in the Senate about making spanking a criminal offence. I guess she’ll be happy now she got her way finally, at least to this stage.
June 19th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Why don’t they just get it over with and ban children? Abortion on demand - their demand. At the same time, introduce an Oxygen Tax, so we surrender our net worth to them.
What a pompous, bawling gaggle of hypocritical, arrogant, avaricious, know-it-all twits these Liberals have become.
June 20th, 2008 at 2:02 am
They couldn’t get your kids via daycare so now they’re after them by saying you’re abusive to your kids so they can take them away from you.
What warped mentalities these parasites have.
June 28th, 2008 at 7:48 pm
Good bill. Nothing else will stop the hitting or change attitudes. I’m sick to death of this being compared to the 12 year old who wanted to go on a school trip! Parents shouldn’t keep their children from educational events and this girl followed the legal process that was offered her. Her mom wanted her to go on the trip, remember? Don’t moms matter? The girl didn’t get to go on the trip after all and yet the incredible whining about parents “losing their rights” because sometimes the legal system actually stands up for children. Sheesh. All the complainers out there must not think children are human beings. There are better ways to treat children than hitting them and denying educational opportunities.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
This bill does nothing to protect children. Child abuse and beating is a deviant behavior, and already a crime. People who abuse children already know they’re breaking the law, and they don’t care. All this bill will accomplish is criminalizing parents who are caring for their kids and trying to raise them to be good citizens.
The senator who introduced this bill has little credibility - as already stated, she was defeated in three consecutive elections. She has no business in the Canadian government, proposing legislation that will affect the lives of the citizens who did not vote for her. Not to mention, she researched this bill by interviewing children, and was pleased to note they agreed with her. Of course they did! Children do not know what is best for them, that’s why they have parents.
I am appalled that this bill has made it as far as it has, and I hope our MPs have more sense than our senators. The government does not know best when it comes to child-rearing; if they did, then institutions would be utopia.
Whether you spank your own kids or not is up to you. But you must agree that this is a case where the government has gone too far, stepped too deeply into our personal lives, and needs to back off.
July 15th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Agreed, Karen. The nanny state idea has gone a step to far and that is why I’m following Britain so closely. We need look no further than the mess there to realize where we could end up if we follow lefty “puritans” over the cliff.
July 15th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
“Beating” means to strike repeatedly, and this is currently allowed under the law. People shouldn’t hit people, it’s wrong and parents need to hear this. Laws are there to protect people so there should be one to protect children. Stop complaining about “nanny state” and stop the hitting.
Studies repeatedly show that hitting children makes them more aggressive and anti-social. Children who are hit are more likely to grow into adults who commit violent crimes, suffer depression and abuse alcohol and drugs. And they’re more likely to hit their elderly parents! Violence begets violence, and if you want a safer society you have to send the message that violence in the home is not acceptable. That’s where children learn their most profound messages, and you don’t want them learning to solve problems by hitting people.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
Canada should ban corporal punishment of children because children are vulnerable and
deserve legal protection. There are twenty-three other countries that have banned
corporal punishment successfully. One of them is Norway and I’m Norwegian myself
and Norway has the highest standard of living. Here in the U.S.A., corporal
punishment is still legal and this is a country that is full of violence! NOBODY
deserves to be hit! ESPECIALLY a little child being hit by someone much bigger
than him or her. Think how scary that is! Think of someone twelve feet tall that’s
hitting you as an adult? Spanking children will put fear in them along with
psycological problems as time goes on.
I can also speak for myself how corporal punishment during my childhood affected me in
many ways. It made me anti-social, it made me fear adults, I became severely
depressed which lead to a suicide attempt and affected intimacy in adulthood in my
marriage. The children I babysat for who were spanked where the most aggressive. The
children I babysat for that were NOT spanked was very easy to babysit for. Also,
spanked children can develop strange spanking fetishes when they become adults.
July 16th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
I hope that S-209 passes so that Canadian children will be protected from abusive whippings, beatings and spankings. Parents need to know that children should be treated with respect and that discipline should be non-violent. Parents are role models for children: When they cuss, children learn to curse, when they hit, slap or spank, children learn to hit. Canada should join the 24 nations around the world that have made hitting of children illegal.
Jimmy Dunne, People Opposed to Paddling Students, Houston, TX
July 17th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
This bill will help protect children, as similar bills have in 24 other countries. Sweden has seen a drastic drop in child deaths and injury since passing a similar bill 29 years ago, and less youth crime. US states that still allow students to be beaten have worse academic scores and more violent crime, so allowing teachers to beat children again in Canada would be counterproductive.
If you really still believe hitting children is so wonderful, why not extend that benefit to adults and make wife-beating legal again, and why not hit that rude waiter or the beggar on the street for disturbing your day? Research on many children has shown hitting them, even mild slaps and spanking, actually makes them behave worse in the long run. But most parents aren’t paying attention and just repeat how they were hit themselves as children. So there needs to be a law to stop the hitting. Hitting children doesn’t make good citizens, it makes messed up societies. This bill deserves to pass. Thank you Senator Hervieux-Payette.
July 17th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I think it’s long past due to ban hitting kids. I never hit my kids because I wouldn’t want to harm them or have them fear me. We get along great and they respect me because I respect them, they know I ask them to do certain things because they know I love them and want the best for them, and I explain my reasons.
Please don’t hit your children. I saw a woman hit a little boy a few months ago who ran into the snow, because he didn’t put on boots first. It was an ugly scene. So many parents just react, they hit because they’re angry and upset and aren’t thinking. A law like this will make them think twice, and find a better solution (like telling the boy you’re worried he’ll get cold without boots, and helping him put them on).
When parents say “I had to hit her because she was trying to touch the stove” and the classic “I had to hit him because he was running into the street” they’re not being rational. For one thing, you child proof so accidents are less likely. And if your child still finds a way to reach a hot burner you push their hand away, or put your hand between the stove and hers. You say “no, very very hot!” and pretend to touch it and say “ow!” You don’t hit. And for crossing the street the best things are to hold the child or hold their hand, you teach them “stay on the sidewalk” or “stay out of the road” (positive terms - don’t say “don’t run into the street” because they might get mixed up and just hear the “run into the street part”). You must supervise your children around roads until they have good habits for looking both ways and crossing carefully. If you live on a busy street then you must put up a fence so your little ones can’t play in the street.
Model good behaviour, encourage good behaviour, and talk to your children and teach them, while giving them lots of loving attention so they’ll want to do what you ask them. That’s a much better way than all the parents I see who ignore their child and then whack them when the child does something the parent disapproves of. And what if they miss the child’s hands or backside, and hit them in the eye or something? About half of all physical abuse of children starts out as physical punishment/spanking.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:47 am
Spanking does not teach kids anything except to have fear for their parents. When you spank a kid for doing something wrong you are nto teaching them why they should not do that particular act, you are only teaching them that if they do it again they will be hit. Why is that we are so proud of our ability and right to hit children? It really makes no sense. Why is it that we think hitting and physical force will produce the best outcomes for society.
Kids and animals who have the least ability to protect themselves are the ones that we feel the least amount of guilt and shame of hurting and abusing.
~Michael Hemker
July 18th, 2008 at 11:50 am
FUnny, my kids aren’t spanked & aren’t hellions. They’re GREAT kids & the teacher wrote on my daughter’s report card she was one of the nicest girls she’s ever had! Not spanking does not mean not disciplining. My kids know right from wrong. Why don’t people get this notion???
July 18th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
A Message of Peace
This story of “peace” was once told by Astrid Lindgren, author of Pippi Longstocking Books
“Above all, I believe that there should never be any violence. In 1978 I received a peace prize in West Germany for my books (Pippi Longstocking), and I gave an accepting speech called just that: “Never Violence.” And in that speech I told a story from my own experience
When I was about 20 years old I met an old pastor’s wife who told me that when she was young and had her first child she didn’t believe in striking children, although spanking kids with a switch pulled from a tree was a standard punishment at the time. But one day when her son was four or five, he did something that she felt warranted a spanking-the first of his life. And she told him that he would have to go outside and find a switch for her to hit him with. The boy was gone a long time. And when he came back in, he was crying. He said to her, “Mama, I couldn’t find a switch but here’s a rock that you can throw at me.”
All of a sudden the mother understood how the situation felt from the child’s point of view; that if my mother wants to hurt me, then it makes no difference what she does it with; she might as well do it with a stone.
And the mother took the boy onto her lap and they both cried. Then she laid the rock on a shelf in the kitchen to remind herself forever; never violence.
And that is something I think everyone should keep in mind. Because violence begins in the nursery-one can raise children into violence.”
July 18th, 2008 at 12:47 pm
I certainly pray this bill passes. It’s about time that people realize that discipline and violence are two very different things. Violence does not teach respect, it does not teach good behavior, it teaches nothing but more violence. Instead of taking the easy way out for lazy parents, they should educate themselves into the proper ways of teaching children!
July 18th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
This is the beginning of granting human rights, protection and dignity also to children. Ending parental violence against the most vulnerable, defenseless and powerless human beings is a first, important step to prevent that their brain development is damaged through violence and hurt by the consequences of physical attacks that cause terrible fear through the fight and flight response that happens not only in a child’s body when attacked by giant adults, but also in the bodies of adults when they are attacked by much stronger and taller violent aggressors. When a young brain has been imprinted by violence, these attacks later cause grave problems for the adults’ self-confidence, health and the evolvement of their human potential.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
The Swedish approval rating for continuing to outlaw corporal punishment is more than 90%, and they have lived with it since 1979 (source: 2003 UNICEF Report Card)! I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Children deserve the same basic human rights that adults have.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
There’s no more excuse for hitting children than there is for hitting adults (unless one holds prejudicial views toward children).
July 18th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
We hit other adults and call it assault. We hit children and call it discipline. How is that a right thing?
If we want to raise children with the understanding that it’s not acceptable to harm others, we have to start by teaching them that they are not the exception. If we tell Susie not to hit little Billy on the playground, but then spank her for breaking a plate, what is she learning?
Behaviour is the truth.
In addition to changing the laws, we need to increase education. Classes are a legal requirement if you want to drive a car; perhaps we should make parenting classes mandatory for those having children. If we can provide coping strategies and other tools for parents, maybe they won’t have to resort to hitting.
Children are people, not property. I’m glad they’re finally being legally recognized as such.
July 18th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
To hit another human being - YES CHILDREN ARE HUMAN BEINGS TOO! - is the cruelest you can do someone. And for what reason? For simply being a child. Spanking parents lack compassion, understanding, patience and are THE ONE WHO ARE UNCONTROLLABLE. Children are just being children. Don’t blame children for your uncontrollable behavior. Get yourself educated in early childhood development. Punishing a child, whether physical (spanking) or emotional (time outs) takes away the actual teaching/learning experience the parent needs to give a child, and only leave hurts, grief, and shame in a child. The child consequently will focus on the hurt more than the learning experience and therefore thrive and learn less, than children raised in healthy, positive, and nonviolent families.
Only dysfunctional parents would hit a child? How sick is this?
- Wife of Pediatrician
July 18th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Six years ago, a Canadian school principal was busted for possessing child pornography. Specifically, he collected pictures of children being spanked. Turns out he’d also spanked a number of students during his career.
In 2002, the FBI broke up a nationwide child-spanking pornography ring. A few of its members even made films using their own kids, who could be heard tearfully pleading their innocence.
Now, it’s not really news that spanking can take on sexual overtones, as anyone who’s seen “Monty Python and the Holy Grail” can tell you. If you doubt it, just type “spanking” into a search engine and see what kind of results you get. And since there are people out there who are sexually drawn to children, it figures that some would enjoy spanking them.
Tragically for many victims, though, society has mostly failed to recognize the potential for sexual abuse in the practice of spanking children or even young adults. Perpetrators often deflect suspicion simply by playing the discipline card.
It’s high time we woke up to this problem.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
There is an overwhelming body of research evidence showing that spanking children is a bad idea. It is cruel and ineffective discipline. It is also a fairness issue. If it is illegal to assault adults, the same should hold true for children.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Editor,
Clearly, we do not learn from history. The call for a total ban against physical discipline of naughty children is misguided to say the least. Look what happened to the institution of marriage after loving husbands were prevented from administering reasonable and moderate chastisement to disobedient wives. Did that so-called reform improve family life? Are women better behaved? Obviously not! They’ve lost all modesty and sense of womanly duty, and are totally out of control. They’ve brazenly opened their own personal bank accounts, taken over men’s jobs and demanded men’s pay. They’ve even had the audacity to run for political office. Meanwhile, the divorce rate has soared out of sight. These are the consequences of our folly.
Jordan Riak
July 18th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Canada’s joining the 24 other nations around the world which have made hitting children illegal would be a great development for Canada’s children and for Canadian society generally. We here in the United States have a lot to learn about how to promote a more respectful, peaceful and equalitarian society that refrains from the use of violence to “solve” problems. Using violence-and all hitting of children even “for their own good” needs to be viewed as violence, just as it is for adults–to “solve” problems merely creates more and worse problems. Some of the sequelae of physical punishment include increased negative emotion, aggression and acting out on the part of the recipient of the violence, not to mention the negative effects upon the person committing the violence. Study after study has shown the use of physical punishment with children to be deleterious to their healthy emotional development. As a clinical psychologist myself, who has seen sadly vast evidence in my practice of the negative effects of physical punishment on kids, I strongly support the passage of this timely and progressive bill.
July 18th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
The first time I became interested in the spanking issue was about 30 years ago, when I lived next to a young unmarried couple. The “step father” spanked his three year old “step daughter” daily for one tiny infraction after another. It was heart wrenching to hear this tiny girl cry day after day - for any little thing that her step father perceived as “wrong.” This couple moved out and another young unmarried couple moved in. In this case the “step mother” daily spanked her “step son” for soiling his diaper. This was her method of toilet training.
I was quite young myself - and had never heard of Child Protection or Social Services or any other institutional way of protecting children. A few years later, I lived next to a very “God fearing” couple who seemed at first like the nicest people on the planet. Then - on a nightly basis, I heard the father through the walls screaming at and hitting his two young children in a night-time routine to get them to go to sleep. These two “babies” - ages 4 and 5, sobbed themselves to sleep every night. Later when talking with their mother, she told me that she “toilet trained” them by taking them out in the front yard and spraying them with cold water from a hose while scolding them - because they needed to “be humiliated” to know what was “right.” A few years later, I met a woman who constantly hit her two year old daughter across the face for “just being there.” This woman was enraged by her daughter -and I saw the woman more than once grab her daughter’s baby bottle from her and throw it across the room while swearing at her. While these circumstances may seem extreme and obviously dysfunctional - consider the child’s point of view. The left side (which is responsible for problem solving, logic, and moral reasoning) of a child’s brain does not really begin it’s critical period of development until after the age of three. And at that time - his or her left side brain development is just beginning. The right side of the child’s brain goes through its critical developmental growth period in the first three years. This is the emotional part of the brain -the part that is responsible for an individual’s capacity to relate emotionally to other people and to develop the capacity for empathy. When a child is “spanked” - or exposed to other kinds of emotionally intense experiences at this fragile age, the part of his or her brain that processes strong emotion (the “amygdala”) is at strong risk for becoming damaged. This is because stress hormones are activated - and can literally “burn out” the amygdala. That is why individuals who were spanked as children often have more difficulty empathizing with the emotional and physical pain of the children they spank - because they dismiss that pain - with a kind of lack of empathy or cold indifference to the pain they are inflicting on another. They literally do not “feel the pain” of another (and have only a limited awareness of their own feelings as well)- and are thus unable to understand (on a very deep level) what all the fuss about spanking is - when it seems so very logical that you control a child or another person through the most obvious and efficient route, physical or emotional force - or emotional disconnection or withdrawal.
Meanwhile - the child that is spanked or exposed to other kinds of emotionally intense experiences (screaming, cold withdrawal, non-responsive adults, hitting, mouth being washed out with soap, etc.) - is vulnerable to having “amygdala” damage - which will ultimately perpetuate the cycle of lack of empathy and abuse, and/or anxiety, depression, and other emotional problems.
So what this means is that individuals who have been spanked often really cannot understand why those “liberals” are belly aching so much about the “out-of-control brats” who need to learn the basics of respect so they can have a life that is not “out of control.” What is actually happening is that these adults are often actually, deeply, operating “just on the edge” and are pretty “tightly wound.” They deny this aspect to themselves and others - because it betrays a deep vulnerability and personal emotional pain. Control of another person is so very important (and a child is the perfect person who obviously needs control). The individual who feels that spanking is so very necessary - feels fearful about children - how they are acting, how they will turn out, how the adults in their life must react to them so that the children remain “in control.” An “out of control” child reflects badly on his/her parents or caretakers - and ultimately may reveal the parents/caretakers darkest secret - one that he/she may hide even from his/her self. This secret is that he/she does not have or feel so completely in control of his or her self. The young child’s random nature must therefore be reigned in - and controlled young. The parents/caretakers have very little trust the child’s nature or needs. - They therefore have limited ability to respond sensitively and empathetically to the child.
The problem is - the more the parent/caretaker responds to the child with this fear-based aggressiveness (spanking, yelling, etc.) - the less the child learns to trust his or her parents - and subsequently his or her self. The child begins to be caught up in a cycle of “reacting” to environmental stresses - rather than responding to inner signals that could help the child modulate his or her reactions and bring him or her to respond in a way that “makes sense. When a person’s amygdala is damaged, the neural connections between the amygdala (the part of the brain that processes strong emotions) and the prefrontal cortex (the part of the brain that serves to “dampen” strong emotions with the calming process of logic or self soothing self messages) - are compromised.
So . . . ultimately, the two sides of the “spanking debate” feel they are each “talking to a wall.” The “spankers” (unconsciously) want the empathy they never got as children - and want the non-spankers to empathize with how hard they have it (or would have it) with unspanked, out-of-control children. The idea that children might have the capacity to “control” themselves given a nurturing, accepting, non-spanking environment seems like such a ridiculous concept it is not even worth considering. The non-spankers, meanwhile, look aghast at the seeming total lack of empathy the spankers display towards children. The real question, it seems to me, is how to possibly “open the minds” of both spankers and non-spankers - to be able to understand and recognize the different kinds of pain each feels when debating and seeking to resolve this spanking issue. I am not convinced that either side (spankers vs. nonspankers) do not “care” about their children (though, of course, there are most probably non-caring parents/caretakers on both sides of the debate. The debate is, on one level, about what is the “best” or “most appropriate” way to “care” for children. And this is a big question - with implications for the future of individual children and society itself. I am aware that I have made a number of “blanket” statements regarding “spankers” and “non-spankers” - and hope that my readers will indulge me - as I recognize that generalizations are fraught with faults. However - I would be most interested in hearing responses concerning the concept that the focus change for just a bit - from the spanked/non-spanked children . . . to the adults who are at the forefront of this debate. What is it that the parents/caretakers are working out in their own psyches, and are there any spankers/non-spankers out there who would be willing to risk this type of self-examination, taking the kids out of the equation. It may seem like a radical concept - to not “judge” the kids - but to try instead to “understand” your own self and motivations on a very deep level - when examining the spanking issue. If you are interested in this, I have developed a gentle “self-exploration” tool that is best used in a non-judgmental therapeutic context. If you are interested in this, you may contact me.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Canada’s joining the 24 other nations around the world which have made hitting children illegal would be a great development for Canada’s children and for Canadian society generally. We here in the United States have a lot to learn about how to promote a more respectful, peaceful and equalitarian society that refrains from the use of violence to “solve” problems. Using violence–and all hitting of children even “for their own good” needs to be viewed as violence, just as it is for adults–to “solve” problems merely creates more and worse problems. Some of the sequelae of physical punishment include increased negative emotion, aggression and acting out on the part of the recipient of the violence, not to mention the negative effects upon the person committing the violence. Study after study has shown the use of physical punishment with children to be deleterious to their healthy emotional development. As a clinical psychologist who has sadly seen vast evidence in my practice of the negative effects of physical punishment on kids, I strongly support the passage of this timely and progressive bill.
July 18th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Valerie-how can you be contacted?
July 18th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I am one of those misguided liberals who wholeheartedly support this bill. Nobody is saying there should be no discipline, but discipline should be in keeping with dignity. We don’t hit hardened criminals anymore, yet we are allowed to hit children. Some parents hit and otherwise punish their children excessively or in irrational anger, yet get away with it. This law will make it clear that NO corporal punishment is acceptable. Imagine you had a senile parent or grandparent who ran out into the street or was being cranky or otherwise acting “childishly”. Would you “spank them in discipline”? I’m sure you wouldn’t dare.
BTW, contrary to popular belief, the kids committing crimes and doing stuff like that often come from the social strata that most APPROVE of and use corporal punishment!
July 18th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Hi Ned…see you’re from Amsterdam.
Welcome!
In Canada we do things a bit differently and “oh yes, we DO hit criminals” — frequently…with malice aforethought. Done it many times myself.
You’re full of bullshit.
Things are different on this side of the pond.
July 18th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
I find it really weird how many people just want to spank their kids so badly. I used to spank my kids when I was younger, but now I’m happy to use alternatives. I can see a huge difference between my youngest and my older kids (4 aged 3-28). I also think that sometimes people really don’t consider a child’s age or social and mental development. They are not little adults.
July 18th, 2008 at 5:44 pm
Wow! Jack, that last post of yours to Ned was very aggressive and angry. I would bet that you were spanked as a child!
July 18th, 2008 at 7:15 pm
I was never spanked as a child but I was once kicked in the ass because while out hunting I pointed my rifle “into the air” and was immediately corrected by my father who insisted that it always be pointed at the ground.
I’m not angry but I feel people who are commenting here have little experience in raising children (I’ve raised five…one lost to cancer at age twelve).
They all turned out fine and I never had to hit anyone. The threat was enough and that’s my point. The government can’t be everywhere and parents need the threat to be able to control their children.
Some matters are better left to mom and dad although I will also say that I would never stand for a child being beaten beyond recognition by an angry parent. It’s a matter of the degree of discipline and that is a judgement call by the cop who attends.
July 18th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
Like Alice Miller, I am deeply convinced that the violence inflicted on children is at the roots of all violence.
July 18th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
Jack that is very sad about losing your child to cancer…I’m so sorry that happened…and also it is sad you were kicked. That was a dangerous and scary thing to do to you. It’s too bad your dad didn’t think of a less violent way to teach you good safety habits. Probably he did what he thought he had to do…a couple decades ago there was very little research into the harms of corporal punishment. Glad you never hit your children…I never hit mine…never threatened to either. I don’t think hitting is a good way to treat family members.
What works to change attitudes about hitting children is to pass laws against it and offer education in positive discipline. Gradually, people start thinking it’s wrong to hit children and they find alternatives that are both better for the child and more effective especially in the long run.
BTW don’t be too hard on Ned, he means “we don’t hit hardened criminals anymore” to be a general “we”. Most countries have banned corporal punishment of criminals.
The Netherlands is one of the 24 countries that has also banned hitting children.
July 18th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Dear Lorene and anyone else interested in contacting me can email me at vwalawender@yahoo.com
Just write in the subject box: “response to spanking debate”
You can also take a look at my website: http://www.facesinthecrowd.net
- Though the emails I receive through my website sometimes don’t come through, so it is better to use my address above.
Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you.
Valerie
July 18th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Say Jack, you’ve struck prisoners with malice as a form of punishment? Are you claiming to be a law enforcement officer in Canada? Sorry, Jack, the only one here “full of bullshit” is you.
The corporal punishment of prisoners is illegal in both the U.S. and Canada (as well as the other industrialized countries of the world). Oddly enough, children remain fair game.
July 18th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
There is no doubt that spanking is harmful to the overall child’s development. If parents or teachers spank kids, it shows that they are poor in parenting or teaching skills OR they are just adopting shortcuts to control childrens’ behaviour. Good parents and teachers are those who discipline children by adopting positive discipline methods e.g.rewarding kids for their good behaviours and allow children themselves to think about their bad behaviours and give them enough opportunity to improve.Children hurt more psychologically when get spanked and dont respect elders when they grow .
July 19th, 2008 at 1:13 am
I am so pleased that this bill has been passed by the Senate. Hitting someone is wrong, no matter what age. And rubbish to anyone who says hitting and spanking create good children: Explain then the crime rates in US States where corporal punishment is embraced by parents and schools alike versus the countries where hitting is illegal and crime rates are low.
As for those of you who insist that while you were hit growing up and are “fine” I would argue that is in spite of the fact you were hit, not because you were hit. Although I’m in my 30s I went to DND schools where teachers strapped/spanked/slapped children regularly (three straps for throwing a snowball, one if they caught you with it before throwing it) - didn’t stop the boys in my classes a bit from engaging in mischief. Just made it more of a challenge and worth aggravating the aggressors if they were caught. Teachers who were kind yet firm (no hitting despite them being allowed) were the ones most respected by the way.
Children need discipline, not violence. Hitting and spanking is violence - just consider a spanking for a wife or granny instead of a two to 12 year old and see if your enthusiasm for that punishment is the same.
I hope my four children can celebrate with me the passing of this law by the House of Commons, when Canada upholds its signing of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.
July 19th, 2008 at 1:25 am
People think that there’s a difference between ‘a short smack’ and a beating.
But the latter is all too common, and the only way to stop this is to ban all smacking. I would hope never to smack my kids because I’d hate to lose control and hurt them… (I’ve lost control somethimes myself and feel guilty)
Smacking NEVER belongs in schools. It happened in the old days because they felt that it was the only form of discipline, but now we know it isn’t.
July 19th, 2008 at 6:33 am
I am still amazed and surprised when I read comments about spanking or other forms of physical punishment. That is, the emotional comments supporting hitting are still rampant. The same persons that I have conversed with who believe in hitting children are appalled when asked if it were OK to spank them. It has been established by pediatric medical professionals as well as psychologists that hitting children (called discipline)is injurious physically and emotionally. Justification is cited in religious writings, but the original language used for same soes not mean physically hiting. The term means to bring one along side and teach by example. For those who believe that hitting children is OK would find by reading the literature by medical and psychological persons and groups that permanent damage is often hidden for long periods of time and their rage and other unacceptable behavior emerge at moments that shock people who have known them for long periods of time. Jerry Townsend, Chrisitan Minister (retired)/ School Psychologist (retired), Woodland, California, USA.
July 19th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I received a number of emails from Jack’s Newswatch. I thought they were spam, so I accidently deleted them. If anyone sent a message to me please remail.
Also - Lorene - I loved your story about the old pastor’s wife whose son brought her a stone to throw at him when he couldn’t find a “switch.”
I want to share with you an exquisite author/teacher, Vivian Gussin Paley. She wrote a number of beautiful books about her experiences with young children in her classroom. Two of my favorites are, “The Kindness of Children” and “Wally’s Stories: Conversations in Kindergarten.”
Paley’s own understanding of how children think grew as she listened to and recorded their stories and conversations. In her books, Paley describes how children are always trying to “figure things out” - but still cannot quite put all the pieces together like an adult would. A child’s logic operates quite differently from an adult’s. Adults who expect a child to “get the lesson” the adult is trying to impart is fooling his or her self. Children make their own sense of the the world and the words and actions of adults and others. For a peek into the perspective of a young child, I highly recommend Paley’s writings.
In “The Kindness of Children” - Paley becomes the student as the children she teaches continually model compassion, moral inspiration and love for one another. When the children come to different conclusions than Paley - it becomes apparent to her that within their separately evolved sense of logic, everything they conclude makes sense.
Instead of seeing the children as “little “hellions,” Paley’s sensitive observation of the children in her care, showed her their beauty, depth, desire for fairness and what is right, gentleness, and a capacity for kindness - so much more than most adults can conceive of.
Along this same line - I remember a thought from Erik Erikson, who studied the human life span (and human development) in over 40 countries, over a 40 year period. He said that parents do not so much raise children - as children raise their parents. As children grow into each new developmental phase, their parents respond to and learn about the phase from their children. This is how parents grow up with their children, learning the lessons they must learn each step of the way.
July 19th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Just FYI to all the latecomers here…if you recieved email from me I didn’t send it. I’ve scanned my computer for a virus and found several. That is a surprise because I formatted and restarted XP not more than two weeks ago.
From what I’ve been reading I can’t do anything to stop it because the actual “mail thingy” is on someone else’s computer as well. All I can do is clean mine. Here’s a better explanation of what has happened:
http://tiny.cc/vMci1
It may be a good idea for all who are on this thread to do a virus scan of their machines and I’m sorry for any inconvenience.
July 19th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
Thank you Jack.
July 19th, 2008 at 4:35 pm
You’re welcome, Val. I didn’t know what else to do other then to tell the truth.
July 19th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Itsn’t it amazing then that other countries in the world who have banned corporal punishment, there is LESS violent crime, the parents are finding it EASIER to parent, the teachers have FEWER problems of classroom control. In the US, the states with the highest usage of corporal punishment in the schools, have fewer students graduating, lower grades, higher teen pregnancy rates, and higher rates of violent crimes in the schools. Hmm, teach a child it is OK to hit someone with less power than they have and, guess what, they grow up learning to beat up others. HOORAY for the Canadian Senate for listening to research and seeing the positive results of similar laws in other countries.